Resilience Talk

Welcome to Resilience Talk hosted by
Paul Spencer of Second Nature Solutions.

Let's dive in.

Brandon Giella: Hello Paul, and
welcome back to another episode

of the Resilience Talk podcast.

This will be an interesting one because
we are gonna talk about negotiation

and there are, uh, a lot of ways to,
to, I guess, discuss that topic, but.

In light of last episode.

So last episode we talked about
this age of transition that we

are entering into and how you can
thrive in that age of transition.

And you got some feedback, by
the way, on that episode that I'm

excited to share in the newsletter.

But um, but as we're entering into
this age of transition, you are

making the argument, Paul, that.

This is not like a previous big
cataclysmic event like 2008 and things

got hairy for a little while, but
more or less we returned to normal

Paul Spencer: Mm-hmm.

Brandon Giella: after I.

Paul Spencer: Yep.

Brandon Giella: is a big, hairy
cataclysmic event that, uh, we

are in this period where it is
actually fundamentally changing.

It's not an incremental change.

It's a categorical change.

It's a, it's a big change that
we're entering into, and so to

create a resilient business within
this new age that we're entering

into for many different reasons.

One of them being tariffs,
one of them being technology.

You know, there's a number of
different events that are happening.

Negotiation is a very important part
of becoming a resilient business.

But you argue it's not just negotiation
in sales and around pricing,

though, that is a big component.

It's, it's negotiation around
a lot of different things.

But I wanna start with.

Um, negotiation as it does relate to the
sales and pricing and things like that.

Maybe that is a good place to start
because you have mentioned, um, that

maybe some of your customers are
experiencing this kind of like, um, you

know, you're getting calls of, Hey, can
you reduce your price by 20% or 50%?

Like, we're going through this crazy
time, and then there's maybe skills

around that that we can talk about.

How do you handle that conversation?

So before we get into all of that, can
you talk very briefly about what you,

how you see negotiation as a, a component
of a resilient business within this age

of transition that we're entering into?

Paul Spencer: So, so negotiating is.

An input into a resilient business.

So regardless if we were going through
the age of transition here, right,

uh, normally we would want to be good
negotiators, and I would say probably

a lot of, a lot of you listening are,
are fairly decent at negotiating anyway.

Um, but it's gonna be even more
critical, um, as we go forward.

As, as you mentioned, right, in
2008 is it is just an example.

If we look backwards, right?

It's always easy to look backwards.

In 2008 is a, is a pretty big event.

Um, and we had a big financial crisis and
for some industries and some businesses

that was more catastrophic than others.

Um, and it definitely affected the
economy and everything that was going on

around us, um, but eventually went away.

Right.

Um, I can use air quotes in that.

There's lots of, side effects that

Brandon Giella: Yes, yes, of course.

Paul Spencer: but we, we did
get back to essentially normal.

Um, and we went on, we
went on our way, right?

And so we can negotiate in that way.

Um, so here, just proposing that because
we are in this transition period that.

It's going to be difficult to understand
what will be normal the back end of this,

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: maybe it won't be as
dramatic as, as I'm playing it out.

Maybe it'll be nearly the same, but
likely it's gonna be very different.

And so because of that, um, this is
where the negotiating aspect comes in

to be pretty critical, to be able to
understand how I am going to negotiate,

win-win opportunities with my customers.

With my suppliers, with my vendors.

And then we also talk about, um,
'cause we always think about.

Negotiating as a sales tactic,

It's a sales strategy and yes, it's
part of sales, um, but we also have it,

um, in other aspects of our business.

We have it internally,

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: So when we
have, um, our executive suite,

right, uh, our leadership team.

We are always negotiating with each
other on where we're going strategically

and what are we gonna be working on.

Um, and maybe we even have business
partners, ownership partners.

Um, there's negotiation inside there.

Um, there could be.

Different business partners were two
entities, share some kind of product

or maybe they're working together,
um, to build a, uh, a unique product.

And there's a, there's a
partnership as part of that.

Um, so anyway, as stakeholders,
shareholders, internal customers, external

customers, we are constantly negotiating

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: it's important that we, we.

Um, think of that as a skill that
we want to elevate ourselves into.

We want to, we wanna get good at
understanding how to negotiate and not

to take it in a personal way, and to
be able to navigate the give and take

of, um, coming to a win-win situation.

Brandon Giella: Got it.

I want to talk about how
you actually do that.

Like what are some ways that you
think about negotiation for win-win?

I know you've got some tips on
that, maybe some methodologies.

There's a, uh, one that you mentioned
in a, in a video that you created.

Um, but before we get there, um, you
talk about, um, this kind of period

that we're in and some feel, some folks
feeling this kind of price sensitivity.

If you could say, so you've got customers,
you've got people in your network,

um, where their, their customers are
feeling this kind of pressure given

the tariff environment, economic
environment that we find ourselves in.

Yeah.

Talk, talk a little bit about that.

Paul Spencer: Um, yeah, so,

as always within our business it
sometimes it's hard to separate the noise.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: Um, so we've got the
backdrop of the tariffs and, uh, and

then every, every article, probably every
headline, maybe a month ago, it's all

about we're going into a recession and
the market was crashing and all of that.

And then so when you get
customers coming to you saying,

Hey, can we work on the price?

Your price?

Can we cut?

We're looking to cut our costs
and you're in that cost bucket

can we, uh, can we drop 10%?

Can we drop 20%?

Right?

Um, so then we ask ourselves,
oh, is that because of

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: what's going on?

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: and we don't
know that unless we ask.

Um, but that's part of the negotiating
is, ah, yeah, that's interesting.

like that.

Right.

It's interesting.

You wanna cut our, cut your cost
by 10% and we're in that bucket.

Um, would you propose we do that, right?

It's a great way

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: opening up.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: tell me more about the, the
costs and the, the other types of costs

that are in the bucket that we're in.

Uh, so you're, you're just listening
and then you ask a question based

on what they're telling you.

And then you don't talk.

Brandon Giella: Hmm mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

No, this is your first step in,
in the win-win mindset is listen

more than I talk, so I love that.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: Right.

Uh, because the reason for that
is a couple of things is the

more I listen to you and the more
I, I respond in a positive way.

That I'm listening and that
I hear what you're saying.

then the more I ask more,
tell me more questions,

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: tell me more about that.

What?

does that mean for you?

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: me understand
how I can help you,

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: and then just let them talk.

The more you do that, the more they feel
like they're being listened to and when

they feel like they're being listened to.

Uh.

They're trusting you, right?

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: we could take it, um,
and move it a, as a comparison, Which

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: a combative position, right?

So you, Brandon, may feel that
you're the procurement officer at

Customer X, and now you're calling
Paul, who's the owner of whatever.

And you say thinking, as soon as I
mention this to Paul, gonna come at me.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: gonna come up with all kinds
of excuses why he's not gonna drop it

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: not even a dime, right?

And so what you do, and part of
your preparation with your call with

me, you think of all the defensive
measures you're going to take,

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: So you're putting
your guard up you're gonna actually,

you're getting your, your, um.

even your anxiety up about the call and
you're, you're planning to go to battle.

Right.

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: And when I disarm
that by saying, oh, interesting.

Tell me more about that.

Yeah.

That's not a, that's not
a, uh, a fun situation.

We've been through this before.

Um, what are your, what are your expenses?

What are you feeling?

Is this some right?

And then you

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: you could ask
lots of different questions

just based on what you tell me.

I

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: a phrase
or a couple of words,

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: Right?

So anyway, I'm building trust and
plus I'm learning more about your

situation that, um, I can help
fashion a win-win opportunity.

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: Without that, we're
not going to arrive to a win-win.

And what's, what are
the other alternatives?

Lose win.

Meaning I lose.

You Win or, uh, win lose.

I win.

You lose.

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: and if we have that kind
of deal or an agreement by the time

we're done, then one of us feels, uh.

Not happy about the situation and
maybe even taken advantage of.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: that doesn't feel good.

And it wears on our trust with each other.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: And it wouldn't be
surprising that if I was the one who

won and you lost you're my customer
that six months from now, you give me

a call and say, we found somebody else.

We're done.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: You're not even
gonna ask me for a price cut.

You're done.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: Because you've been sore.

About the, the situation.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: negotiating doesn't always
mean that you arrive to a win-win and

everybody's happy and skipping around.

I mean, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's not all that.

Um, but you have to, you have
to go through the negotiating

process, in order to be resilient,

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: If you,
if you take that across.

five or six of your customers that are
asking you those types of questions

and you negotiate those deals in a,
in an honest win-win way, that has

long, that has longevity for you,

Brandon Giella: That's
a resilient business

Paul Spencer: As opposed to making sure
I hold on to each one of those five or

six, I'm gonna hold onto as much as I can.

Brandon Giella: Hmm,

Paul Spencer: and I work those agreements.

Um, I'm actually jeopardizing.

Maybe all of them

in

Brandon Giella: in

Paul Spencer: the short term.

Right?

Definitely in the long term.

Brandon Giella: I, I like that
distinction that you would think that in

a negotiation like that you are, let's
say, getting more revenue per client.

It means more cash flow,
it means more resilience.

But what you're arguing is a non-monetary
kind of resilience where that trust that

you're building up, or I shouldn't say
non, non-monetary 'cause it is eventually

monetary long-term relationship.

So a trust is a higher outcome.

Yeah.

Okay.

I like where you're going with that.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: uh, if you, if you focus on
the money, uh, you will, you'll, you have

an opportunity to skip the trust building

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: Um, if you focus on
building trust in a win-win negotiation,

then in theory, again, the outcome
will be a better monetary situation.

Brandon Giella: I think there's a
proverb that says, I think there's

a proverb that says Wealth gained
in haste will soon come to ruin.

Yeah.

Yeah, I like that.

Hmm,

Paul Spencer: So, um, another part
of the negotiating is just knowing

that, uh, we can't get to a win-win.

Brandon Giella: hmm hmm.

Paul Spencer: um, and because of
that, then there's probably no

reason to have any kind of agreement,

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

It's not gonna

Paul Spencer: serve you,
it's not gonna serve me.

And so, We'll just separate ways, right?

We, we'll, we'll, either if
you're a current customer,

maybe we'll wind it down.

We'll agree to wind it down.

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: because again,
that may be the win-win,

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: right?

Which is, let's just call it quits.

Not in a mean way,

We can't

Brandon Giella: Yeah,

Paul Spencer: get to a place that I
can't support your cost cutting needs

because it's not gonna work for
me and my business and my model.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: and you can't afford me.

Essentially at this point, right?

Um, so it's not gonna work.

Brandon Giella: That's right.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: that's also a win-win.

we can, the other cool thing that
is about that is, again you trust me

because we came to that conclusion

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: and then, six months
from now, four months from now, I can

call you and say, Hey, how's it going?

And you're like, boy, when you
get, you get what you pay for.

yeah, that's right.

Uh, are you ready to kick up some
quality and get back into this?

Brandon Giella: That's right.

Paul Spencer: yet.

Okay.

I'll call you in three more months.

Brandon Giella: Hmm,

Paul Spencer: I'll call you in six months.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: Right.

That is, that's still part of
the negotiating and that's okay.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: Again, just to compare
that again, as opposed to you and I

holding on as tight as we could on each

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah,

Paul Spencer: that three
months, that six months.

Just grinding it out

Brandon Giella: yeah.

Paul Spencer: each other and,
maybe even hate each other's

guts through that whole process.

Right.

Brandon Giella: Well,

Paul Spencer: there, the, if you think
about short term, long term, it's highly

likely that we're just gonna say we're
done working with each other and we will

never take each other's calls again.

Brandon Giella: yeah.

Yeah.

Which is the worst possible outcome.

Paul Spencer: That's lose lose.

Brandon Giella: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You mentioned a, a, a part of that is
having fun, have fun with negotiation.

Talk to me about that.

Like, 'cause that, that, that
resonates with me where, okay,

it's not this, like this bargaining
chip that we're pushing around.

Like, it's like, okay, let's be creative.

Let's think, let's, let's
explore other options that

we're not even thinking about.

You know?

So talk to me a little bit about that.

Paul Spencer: Well, I would say
that, um, negotiating is definitely

part of sales, but I would say I.

Hmm.

all salespeople are good
at negotiating, right?

We may say,

Brandon Giella: Okay.

Paul Spencer: sales is good at
negotiating, but not, not really.

Um, some are, some are not.

and so there's a limiting factor
that we put on ourselves, is, oh.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: I gotta go talk to Brandon
about this cost cutting thing, and,

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: I gotta work out
some kind of new agreement and

it's like, ugh, I'm so terrible
at this and I don't like doing it.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: So the fun part, fun part
is saying, oh, this'll be fun, right?

I'm gonna

Brandon Giella: Yep.

Paul Spencer: I gotta call
with Brandon this afternoon.

I'm gonna see what he's up to.

I'm not excited about the opportunity
of cutting my cost by 20%.

My, my, my cost,

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: Um, but I am
curious to where he is at and

there's an opportunity here,

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Hmm.

Paul Spencer: And there's an opportunity
for us to maybe work in a different way.

For me to understand more
about what he's up to.

And you know, he and I haven't really
talked in a while, and maybe this is a

good opportunity for us to build some
more trust and, and so negotiating

has to be something that you are
willing to just throw out there.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: Let me, this is
what I hear you saying, Brandon.

Let me throw this out there.

It's, tell me if this is a stupid idea.

What if, what if we just went ahead and,
uh, and did the 20% cut, and then, uh,

in the next three months we were able to
get back to back to whole on our side?

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: no, that's
not a stupid idea.

Well, tell me why.

And I don't know if that, if you're
gonna say it's stupid or not.

I might as well throw it out there.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Paul Spencer: right, if I do, and
you say no, that's not a stupid idea.

Why?

Well, because in three months things
will change and we'll probably

be whatever, whatever, right.

Whatever the narrative is.

And then now we have a win-win.

I can get you a, a price cut
a few months until you get

your things in order, and then

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: be both.

We'll go back to normal business.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: So, but you have
to, you have to be willing to.

ideas out there

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: and be like, let's have fun
with it and see what, see what we get.

That's the fun part.

Brandon Giella: That's, it reminds
me of, I, I use the phrase like,

let's just figure this out.

Like, this is, we can, we can
do this, we can figure this out.

You know, let's, let's put
it all out on the table.

And I like doing that upfront.

'cause uh, invariably when you're in
a conversation, sometimes you have,

it's a, you know, hour long call.

You don't get to that real, like,
nitty gritty part of the conversation.

Sometimes until like 45 minutes
into the call and then you've got 15

minutes to kind of work out this thing.

So just start the call like, Hey
look, let's try to figure this out.

You know, let's be
creative about this option.

But I also, what I hear you
say is, is almost like focus

on the human being behind.

The relationship or the business deal
or, or whatever, where it's like, I

just wanna hear what, what Paul's up to.

Like I just wanna figure out like
he, he has needs, I have needs.

Let's talk about this.

I care about you as a person, you know?

Um, and so I hear that part of it,
which I think is really great too.

Like, I, I care about you as a
person and I wanna hear how can

we serve each other, you know?

Paul Spencer: Yeah.

Yes.

I, um, I think of it in that way.

Um, but I mean, you and I may
not know each other, right?

And we

Brandon Giella: Sure.

Paul Spencer: our assumptions

Brandon Giella: Sure.

Fair.

Paul Spencer: and we know in
our own companies, uh, what we

talk about each other, right?

So you have a, um, true or not, uh,
opinion and stereotype of my company

Brandon Giella: Fair.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: and my company
does with you, right?

And we talk about you and your services
and what you're up to and whether

you're easy to work with or not,

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: So those things
are all part of, those are all

part of the negotiating, right?

We, we have to understand that.

Um.

And we have to really know whether
those are true or not, right?

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: assumptions.

and then, yeah, the only way you're
gonna work on making some kind of

agreement is by talking to each other.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: just to your
point, that's a human thing.

And if we get irritated or if you
don't treat me well, or if you're

arrogant about it, um, that's gonna
make the negotiation even harder.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah.

So in, in the last few minutes here,
I want to, I want to cover some like.

You've got a, a section of this article
that you wrote, uh, about practical tips.

So again, entering into this age of
transition, things look very different.

There's a lot of negotiation that's
gonna be happening in the future.

And so you've got these five, um, tips.

We've covered some of them.

Um, but essentially number one is
practice reflective listening and

then know who you're talking to.

Take breaks when emotions run high.

Speaking to the, the human side of
things, consider the relationship value

thinking long term, not short term,
and then be creative with the terms.

So we kind of covered, covered those,
but one I don't think we really talked

about was know who you're talking to.

So some part of the negotiations, um, uh,
the, the first step you mentioned like

the Sandler Sandler sales methodology is.

Know, know who you're talking to.

Are you the buyer?

Do you have budget?

Are you the buyer?

Are you the decision maker?

Can you help me with this?

You know, that kind of thing.

So, so talk to me.

So in, in those five, you know, um, tips
that number two seems pretty important.

Uh.

Paul Spencer: So, um, it depends on
the, the makeup of, of who you're

dealing with, meaning the business.

So let's say it's a customer uh,
you get a call from the customer.

And they say, um, need to, we need to cut.

We'll just keep using the prices analogy.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: need to cut prices.

Your, your cost, our cost by, by 15%.

And then, uh, so then you
schedule a call with that person.

you need, you need to understand who
that person is and, uh, is it them

that's figuring out what the cost.

do

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: figure out the
15% or were they told the 15%?

How did they arrive to the 15%?

What, what is their thinking about
a 15% versus a 20% versus a 10%?

Uh, those are all the things
that you need to know.

makeup of that person, what's their

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Hmm.

Paul Spencer: because a lot of times
that person making that call is, is

maybe a procurement officer, right?

Or maybe an inventory manager or
maybe a, a VP of some sort, maybe

a VP of operations or, um, client
services, vendor management, right?

they may be being told that that number,
and go figure this out with Paul.

And they don't really know maybe much
of the background, or maybe they may

know the background, but they don't
have any authority to negotiate.

Brandon Giella: Mm.

Paul Spencer: Right.

So for you to be able to have the
conversation, you have to know Brandon

is and, and if I don't know, that's
one of the first things I'm gonna ask

is, how did you arrive at the 15%?

And I just, right.

And I

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: normally, uh, you really
know or not, I can just tell by the

way you answer the question, right?

And your body language and all that.

Hopefully you can do a in person
you can do it on a Zoom call, right?

Um, and then if you get a sense that,
uh, maybe you were told the 15%.

Then I may ask some questions
based on what, what your answer is.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: me more about that.

me more about that.

Well, are you aware that that is not
related to the service that we provide?

Actually, our service will
make that better for you if you

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: service away, that'll
make that one thing actually worse,

which will cost you even more money.

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: Right?

So anyway, if you're having
that conversation and

this person is not in the.

In the influential then you
need to change the negotiation.

It's not a negotiation at
that point about cost cut.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: a negotiation about
how we can work together to get

in the same room with the person
who told you to make the 15% cut.

Right.

Because it's only at that point

Brandon Giella: Yeah,

Paul Spencer: Paul can make a
negotiating win-win proposal, right?

Brandon Giella: that's right.

Paul Spencer: in the end, the only way
that this is going to end up is you win.

I lose because you are given this cut,
probably some different criteria, right?

You're not gonna negotiate it on it.

And no matter what I say or do with you
as part of my negotiating, you don't

have the authority to say yes or no.

Brandon Giella: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Paul Spencer: opportunity I have is
to say, take the deal or, or not,

Brandon Giella: yeah, yeah.

Paul Spencer: win.

I, there's no win-win in that situation.

So there's no point on me
even having the conversation.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: the conversation
to learn more about it, but

eventually I need to learn.

How do I negotiate to the, the,
stakeholder, the highest stakeholder

that we can have a conversation
so that we can get to the win-win.

Brandon Giella: What
this reminds me of is.

I have listened to a lot of
Charlie Munger in my day.

Uh, so Charlie Munger is a business
partner of, of Warren Buffet,

late business partner, a legend.

Uh, he would always say that the
number one thing you can learn

in business was psychology.

And he said if he could go
back and if he could study one

thing, it would be psychology.

And everything you're describing is
that in these negotiation conversations,

it is so human, psychological.

You know, there's just so
much going on in there.

Uh, with those conversations, there's
obviously that you need to know your

business and margins and what you can do
and not do and all that sort of thing, but

there's just so much psychology in there.

Paul Spencer: Yeah.

Yeah.

So Deming, uh, the Deming, uh,
system of profound knowledge,

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: thing that we use
with when we're thinking about our

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: One of those is psychology.

Brandon Giella: Hm.

Paul Spencer: And so, uh, you have
awareness of the system, right?

You understand variation, you understand
theory of knowledge, and then you

understand psychology because, uh, you may
have systems like what we've talked about,

processes in place, but you have to also
un understand psychology and the people.

That are running the systems,

Brandon Giella: That's right.

Paul Spencer: Because everything
that we just talked just now about

negotiating and, and, uh, developing
a win-win opportunity or agreement

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: our customer a process.

Brandon Giella: Hmm

Paul Spencer: Um, and in that
case, it's uh, super critical.

You understand psychology in
order for that process to work.

Brandon Giella: hmm.

Paul Spencer: We're not in the, we're
not in the, in the, um, furniture making

process where you just need to know
how to operate the gun in the mill,

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: the drill
in the mill right here.

I have to understand how you work.

As a human.

And then I also have to understand how
you work as a person, as an individual,

Brandon Giella: Mm.

Paul Spencer: and the things,
what your role is, right?

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: think about things and
are you willing to negotiate and right.

All those things.

Uh, in order to get to
a win-win, you have to.

you're not gonna, you're not
gonna succeed in a win-win.

Brandon Giella: Thank you for
my, uh, monthly reminder that

I need to study dimming in the
system of profound knowledge.

'cause I feel like every time I talk to
you, it's like, no, this is a system.

Go back, like, to go what our
first principles, you know,

think about this in, in totality,

Paul Spencer: Yeah.

Brandon Giella: very helpful.

Paul Spencer: I think, uh, just, I know
we talked about this at the beginning,

but everything we just talked about
would, is a normal input, a normal

process for a resilient business.

It's we do,

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: we operate.

So, um, if you're not, if you don't feel
like you would score yourself as high.

In negotiating either
internal or external.

then it's something to work on.

It's

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: about,

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: so many things out there,
um, to learn on, um, on negotiating.

There's so

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: things out there.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: and just by
touching it just a little bit,

you'll, you'll improve, right?

But the, the main point of our
conversation is that it's going to

be hypercritical that you understand.

Psychology and you understand your
negotiating process because there are

going to be a lot of things shifting

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: people are gonna
be finding their partners.

Brandon Giella: Mm

Paul Spencer: the, and it's, it's
like when you are a school kid, right?

And we're picking dodgeball teams.

If

Brandon Giella: mm.

Paul Spencer: if you don't make
your kickball teams right, and

if you don't make your pick,
if you don't move fast, right?

You're like, ugh.

Brandon Giella: Yep.

Paul Spencer: Geez.

Brandon Giella: Yep.

Paul Spencer: don't wanna, you wanna
be able to have the skill the, and

the, the, the presence to be able to
make these agreements and to be able

to move, constantly on your negotiating

Brandon Giella: Hmm,

Paul Spencer: it, it's
going to be necessary.

Brandon Giella: that's right.

It's, it seems like everything's off
the table for the next period, 10 years.

I don't know.

You know, whatever it might look like, but

Paul Spencer: the timeframe is, but

Brandon Giella: yeah.

Paul Spencer: uh, if you,
going back to the fun aspect.

Brandon Giella: Yeah,

Paul Spencer: and I, and just to, just to
go back, this is not to be flippant about

the seriousness of running the business

Brandon Giella: of course.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: having employees and,

Brandon Giella: We're all feeling it.

Yeah.

Paul Spencer: back for 20%
and that's gonna be a, a big

disruption to our business and

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul Spencer: and all that.

Yes, of course.

However, if we can still be fun
with our negotiating and we can

get improvement into our skills
on what that process looks like.

Right then we improve and we elevate,
and it only sets us up for more success

Brandon Giella: That's right.

Paul Spencer: success.

And there may be a time where our
business is doing today is completely

different than what we, than what
we're gonna be doing in six years.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Paul Spencer: we naturally, as a resilient
business shifted and pivoted and did

our feedback loops and negotiated,
and we ended up in the optimal.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul Spencer: And our business is
now operating, thriving because we

didn't just sit here and try to figure
out how we get this thing to work.

Brandon Giella: That's right.

Paul Spencer: and that's the negotiating
again, is just an important input into

Brandon Giella: Hmm, hmm,

Paul Spencer: a turbulent time.

Brandon Giella: hmm.

Paul Spencer: Unpredictable time
probably is a better way of saying it.

Brandon Giella: Amen.

Amen.

I'll close with that 'cause that's
exactly, exactly right and it's something

I definitely could get better at.

So thank you.

As always, for your wisdom and expertise.

Well, that'll do it, Paul.

We'll see you next time.

Talk soon.

Paul Spencer: you.

Yep.

Bye.